Allison: I guess you probably know this but still; many Heathens view the Indoeuropean deities as being basically the same gods, only worshipped under different names. Thus many non-Norse people choose the Norse pantheon, because they just feel connected to them in a stronger way than the others (be it because of personal preference, or just the larger amount of info available on old Viking gods and traditions, as opposed to scarcer sources from other cultures, making it easier for them to identify themselves with the gods).
And this at least to me is a pretty valid point, since in essence our heritage is in many ways not only similar, but identical, and with the original pre-Christian European gods being quite similar in every culture here, there is little reason to believe that e.g. Morana and Hel are different goddesses. It's the way one chooses to perceive it that is IMHO all that matters.
A Norwegian band who believe in Triglav, Veles, Crnobog, etc.? Sure, no problem, if their heart is in it! And vice versa of course.

Oh and I am an atheist so I am not speaking about myself or anything. :-) And in essence I agree that if one is Heathen, then one should worship the gods in the shape that his forefathers did, but I would not make it a rule.

I personally can, actually, but that's beside the point.

What you have to understand is this, there's no such thing as an undiluted culture nowadays. French culture is simultaneously gaulic, Roman, Frank and Norman. Britain? Every culture of europe occupied britain at some point. Slavic Paganism is a mix of Germanic deities and a strong does of Shamanism. Even Scandinavia has been moulded and shaped by 1000 years of christianity, and thus according to your narrow definition of who should play this or that, they lost all right to sing about a spirituality that doesn't reflect the identity of their nation for the past 1000 years. Hope you can see the ridicule in that.

History today is not written by christians. It is written by historians. If we're talking History of paganism in a serious fashion, do keep New Age fluff views demonizing christianity out of it, because it has NOTHING to do with the point. And opinions can be wrong when uninformed, as yours seems to be.

Portuguese culture, for example has suffered influences from the celts, Romans, Visigoths, and various muslim tribes in the south. That cultural diversity is well patent in every aspect of our everyday life. Our genuine folk music embraces both arabic and Celtic influences seemlessly, our language is primordially latin, though a good 1/3 is definetly germanic... Our culture changes with everyone who steps on our lands.

Germanic tribes are no different. Their usage of the runes is peculiar, but the alphabet itself was more than likely an import from the southern countries. They eventually adopted christianity, and followed suit to the feudal model of the rest of Europe. And so on and so on. If we go at it that way, absolutely no one is qualified, not even through their bloodlines, since every culture was influenced by others, and that's not only appliable to cultures of today, but to cultures of 1000 years ago. The Viking culture was as much the product of cultural mixture as Portuguese culture is today.

Glad to know that you don't share Fleischwolf's inconsistency. However, I would like to know how exactly are you going to equate someone's trueness according to the standards you have just set... DNA tests? A 10 page indepth questionnaire on "x" culture? Ludricous as the options above seem, they are preferrable to your completely arbitrary, bordering on ignorant, criteria to determine what band is fit to produce Viking Metal or not. As pointed out above time and again, Gjallarhorn make awesome nordic folk, and half of them are Australian. My ears define good music, not the musician's passports. Guess I'm blessed where others aren't, for that.

I can find lots to love about my culture. Mostly because I actually know something about it, unlike others. This does not mean that I cannot appreciate the beauty on other cultures, or that I am unfit to sing about them. Or that because I love my culture, I should forcefully restrict myself to singing about it and nothing else. That said, I'd rather have a non nordic approaching Viking Lore properly thus Honouring it, than to see a Nordic making a fool of himself.

Moonsorrow themselves are an example. A band that never defined themselves as Viking, goes and quotes the Havamal. To me, it is a great inclusion, to your standards, they'd have to be wannabes, because finnish culture differs from that of the Vikings...

A band who is entirely devoted to egyptianism. The music's standard fare US Death Metal, the lyrical subjects, however, are incredibly well researched, often using source materials and often having an indepth grasp on the topic they're approaching.




Oh geez.

Hammerheart's just a beautiful poem about someone passing away. Nothing more, nothing less. And he was quite cynical in interviews, yes. But what seems to elude you was that his cynicism was primarily aimed at those who took him way too seriously. According to your words, it seems like you're one of those targeted by it.

There you go Grimner, you wanted the last word so you've got it. You can't respect the opinions of others that happens to differ from your own or discuss intelligently without resorting to insult so I am done discussing with you - it's above your head anyway. Next.

__________________
"The cat...has a girl's nose, a rabbit's head,
The tail of a serpent's poison, a viper's claws,
And cloudberries for feet-as for the remainder of its body,
It comes forth from the race of wolves." - From the Magic Songs of the Finns

Exactly! At least YOU display the intelligence to discuss these things without resorting to personal insult and I respect you for that. Yes, Morana, Hel, Hades, Tuoni - all different names for exactly the same aspect of Nature. But Heathens HONOUR the gods while xtians WORSHIP and grovel to theirs. Sometimes the god/esses choose us. I think that a wonderful way to explore a culture is through the way it honours Nature. It gives a better sense of understanding.

__________________
"The cat...has a girl's nose, a rabbit's head,
The tail of a serpent's poison, a viper's claws,
And cloudberries for feet-as for the remainder of its body,
It comes forth from the race of wolves." - From the Magic Songs of the Finns

I see myself simply as a caretaker of the Nature, the true purpose of walking the Heathen path and it is a path I do not deviate from. It is the way of life I chose a very long time ago, long before the concept of black/death metal ever even came about. Quorthon was in kindergarten when I took to this path. If I have Nordic roots then fine, but at the end of the day I have a respect for all culture because each of them have something to teach us. When I started on this path I did not choose a particular pantheon/tradition - I made a point to study them all and then take some from each of them with me and that is why I call myself an eclectic Heathen. I've given a part of my life to every path from Buddhism, Hermeticism, Shamanism to Asatru, Gnosticism and everything in between. And I consider myself a perpetual student of Heathenism as well as a teacher of it. The point I am basically trying to make in my posts is mainly music-related. I just have a resentment for people who use a music genre/trend to misrepresent Heathenism in any form, especially when they are more interested in being a garage guitar player and rubbing shoulders with rock stars and misuse our symbolism to make themselves look cool. More frankly - I despise wannabes and be honest, there are far too many of them about exploiting what we honour. As a Heathen man, I am sure that you find all the mallcore misrepresentation frustrating too.

__________________
"The cat...has a girl's nose, a rabbit's head,
The tail of a serpent's poison, a viper's claws,
And cloudberries for feet-as for the remainder of its body,
It comes forth from the race of wolves." - From the Magic Songs of the Finns

Rather, it seems you're bereft of counters to offer.

Quite the contrary, but if it humours you to believe as such then that is fine with me.

__________________
"The cat...has a girl's nose, a rabbit's head,
The tail of a serpent's poison, a viper's claws,
And cloudberries for feet-as for the remainder of its body,
It comes forth from the race of wolves." - From the Magic Songs of the Finns

What i have seen hasn't led me to believe otherwise. I award respect in consonance to the merit of one's argument.


Draw your conclusions from that.

Grimner, you are well-educated in some points, but show some personal strength and give constructive criticism to those who suffer in being slightly informated about the subject. Knowledge is power to those who wield them. But only in the use can be the fusion of talented intelligence and knowledge, also known as intellect, triumph - not in being pretentious. Don’t forget that knowledge is interchangable and doesn’t make someone greater to someone who lacks in it temporally. Everybody can reach today knowledge.

But it’s still interesting what you stated. I read long time ago about European history, it reminds me a lot what you wrote. My crippled English language skill is momentarily to weak to participate seriously one of the discussions here, as it seems. Hehe, one less defender for the German rant camp…

Falkenbach are at least good with its own sound and Vratyas is at least Germanic, therefore not from Celtic descend, as German - if his selfstated Scandinavian-Icelandic heritage is wrong. Who cares in this matter.

As resume for me, it is always good to know more about my subject of hate (my despise to humans, not racial based - no racial hate preferences:), origin, roots, better to define...

As far as I can see, I have never seen mallcore misrepresentation of Heathenism. I have never heard mallcore bands singing about Heathenism. Give me some examples of that please.

As far as Vratyas being a wanna be? How is that? I am a huge fan of Falkenbach and I don't think he misrepresents anything!! If you know anything about him or have read interviews with him, he is serious about his Heathenism. If you want to get into misrepresentation of heathen symbols you should look at niðlings like Varge Vikernes and the rest of the NS Black metal bands that misrepresent themselves as Heathens! They are the ones doing us Heathens the most injustice!

Now you touched on another topic that kinda strikes a sore spot with me....eclectic heathens. Do you really believe in mixing pantheons? Wouldn't that be just the same as wanna be Heathenism....even worse? Wouldn't that be a misrepresentation of heathen symbolism? You say you are a teacher of heanthenism but you mix pantheons? I respect all folkways but Heathenism is just that....the folkway of the Northern Europeans...of which my ancestors are from. I am not saying that one folkway is better or worse than another. It is what it is. I am not attacking you personally, I just need you to clarify your position on being an eclectic heathen.

Oh, agreed. I have no problem with knowledge, or lack thereof. But at the same time, if one makes an assertion or disagrees with my points, they actually offer something instead of making me go over and over the same point ad nauseam. If anything, my patience has its limits, and after 7 pages of seeing no true explanation as to why only "true" scandinavians can make the perfect Viking metal, patience grows thin.

The only point remotely in favour of "nativity" is the fact that we tendencially connect to the culture we grow up with. Which is all well and good, and there is a point to that. But it doesn't make it impossible for a foreigner to take interest in another culture, and sing about it, and do a job as good as a native. To immediately dismiss someone because they are not "native" is ridiculous for all the mentioned reasons.


Well, you made posts before and I had no trouble reading them. It's not perfect, but it gets the message across, don't worry.

Not me.

I used them as an example of someone who though german, sings about vikings. If we're using the ethnic criteria to say an Ethnic band cannot be good if it doesn't come from the land directly connected to their subject, then let's bring it to it's ultimate consequences.




As an aside, I took out my Ziuwari CD by Menhir a couple of days ago, and cracked up, because i got reminded of this discussion. If you have it, at least a half of the illustrations portray Celts, not Germans... yet they praise Wotan...


All in all, I still maintain that a malaysian, Italian or whatever doing an album about Vikings and doing it intelligently is infinitely more rewarding than a german doing the same topic badly. or Vice versa.

Oh my, it seems that you have got the wrong end of the stick here. Let me elaborate.......

When I use the word "mallcore", I am referring not to music, but to trend. Look around you - go to your local mall and just look. Better yet, go to the BOOKSTORE at the mall. Go to the occult book aisle and just listen. It is full of these kids all dressed in their silly looking version of what they interpret to be goth fashion and they think they are so too cool reading spell books and the satanic bible and necronomican and all that crap and about their necks they are wearing the mjöllnir and pentagram. It does not represent the Heathen path very well at all and when this is the type of crap that gets the public attention, what does that make us look like?

Where exactly did I say anything close to that? I said in a previous post that I have listened to Falkenbach and was not impressed with them. That is all I said, but you construe it to suit your argument. And I never even mentioned Vratyas at all - I don't know about their music and have no real interest to learn.

On that I could not agree more. I despise Vikernes and he is anything BUT Heathen. But guess what, there are a LOT of people like him unfortunately.

You obviously got into metal music and then you got into Heathenism through it. I have ventured through ALL schools of esoterica - the way it is SUPPOSED to be done. I had a tough teacher. For you, Asatru is the one and only path of Heathenism and that is unfortunate because you stop there. You have a very narrow background to draw from as a result. I started out on this path in Hermeticism - NOT neo-Paganism. Asatru is a form of neo-Paganism. I studied Asatru and drew from it the knowledge I wanted to take with me - the runes. The uncertainty of Asatru's practical origins is something I was not comfortable with. I don't even know if you have a clue what Hermeticism is. What I learned from each school of study helped me to find my own path and it so turned out to be a Shamanic one. The TM techniques I learned under Buddhism were a great help in teaching me to control different states of consciousness and as a result I can go in a Shamanic journey on a dime. I am not a diviner, I am not a spell-caster - I am a healer and traveller. Can pantheons be mixed you ask? If you studied outside the box you would know that an aspect of Nature remains exactly the same no matter what name you call it by. MY definition of "pantheon" is simply the distinct name and physical image that a particular culture associates to a particular aspect of Nature. It's nothing more. Thor can be Zeus or Perkele, it does not matter to me by which name it goes. So to answer your question - YES, they can be. Your attitude towards this is rather "christian", I would say.
The whole problem with the whole Pagan/Heathen thing is that people do not want to give their lives to it. They want to turn it on and off like a faucet when their favourite metal band is doing whatever. Heathenism is a way of life that you devote yourself to. It is service to others. It is caretaking of Nature, it is a lifetime of diverse study and sharing of knowledge. It is not even remotely about metal music or clothes or jewellry. For me, I know no other way. I have been in this way of life for 33 years. If you want to ridicule it, then that is fine - it would not be the first time for me. The way I see it, my life is in total balance on all levels and others can think, say and believe as they may, but I know that I am true Heathen inside and out and it is a path that nothing can make me deviate from. If others want to criticise because my beliefs are different, then that is their choice. If they want to learn, then I am only too glad to share knowledge because knowledge is not worth a damn if it is not shared.
I am anything BUT a wannabe.

__________________
"The cat...has a girl's nose, a rabbit's head,
The tail of a serpent's poison, a viper's claws,
And cloudberries for feet-as for the remainder of its body,
It comes forth from the race of wolves." - From the Magic Songs of the Finns

So, you borrow elements from whatever religion, and yet feel that only those from viking lands are privvy to singing about that culture?


You DO realise that your liberal "pick and choose" approach puts you well within the league of those that, although not native to Scandinavia, recognize, appreciate and even utilize its lore, right?


With the aggravant that such a thing makes you a hypocrite, in light of your previous statements.

Oh, this is almost too easy.

I don't expect the likes of you to understand nor do I need the approval of someone who has no knowledge or background on this subject. You read into it what you choose to without realising that I am talking strictly about Heathenism in that post and nothong to do with music. Two totally different subjects in case you are not aware. Why don't you share your background of Heathenism with us - what is YOUR experience in it? How much have YOU studied about it - not out of idle music-related interest, but AS a Heathen? ............................I thought so. All you seem to be able to offer is personal attack and ignorance.

__________________
"The cat...has a girl's nose, a rabbit's head,
The tail of a serpent's poison, a viper's claws,
And cloudberries for feet-as for the remainder of its body,
It comes forth from the race of wolves." - From the Magic Songs of the Finns

Allison, you've autoowned yourself completely. You borrow stuff from many different beliefs and yet the Norse religion and mythology should be exclusive to the Norse themselves?